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Roger Mexico, Gentleman
My nostalgia for Basic is the only reason I want that book.


I have to watch that ProJared video later.
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Drav
The last two minutes of that video are a good summary of why I haven't actually attempted to run oDnD yet.

I've been tempted to pick up the Rules Cyclopedia on Ebay a few times, but it isn't cheap. Personally I'm hoping for a reprint with the same artwork.
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Toementor
Better watch out for Grab Grass or Yellow Mold though.
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Drav
I forgot to make a joke about Spoony really cleaning himself up for that video.
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Sar
I'm taking over this thread and it's now a general Dungeons and Dragons thread.

Currently I'm playing in three campaigns. In the first (3.5), I'm a human rogue and we're currently approaching what I assume to be some kind of underground temple or perhaps some underdark terrain because there are whispers of mindflayers and beholders so that's going to be exciting.

In the second (3.5) I'm a human psychic warrior and I have a huge sword that flames and the general thrust of our characters is we fuck up vampires and we're currently in a castle that's some sort of hall of psychological mirrors, which is funny because this is the first adventure in this campaign so these characters aren't especially fleshed out, so watching the DM struggle trying to figure out how to fuck with our characters' heads is kind of funny.

The third is a 5E campaign that I play at a local game shop. I play a rogue/fighter hybrid that's pretty unstoppably badass but I'm really annoyed with the homebrewing the DM has done that has sought to completely unbalance the game in such glaringly obvious ways that it's not even fun to play anymore. I started playing that game to learn 5E from a player's perspective, but now I just go because I feel like they'll be mad at me if I stop. I think I'll stop going.

Then I'm DMing a game every Sunday (and apparently sometimes on Wednesday because people will be arriving shortly). I'm running the 5E campaign The Lost Mines of Phandelver to get my feet wet, and yes, yes, I know it's the Starter Set adventure so it's basically baby's first adventure, but I'm brand new to DMing and my players are all brand new to RPGs in general, so I thought it was a good first step. We're currently about halfway through and I've already purchased and begun preparing Princes of the Apocalypse as our next adventure. Beyond that I think I'll start designing and running my own games.

On top of that, one of the guys from my main D&D group is putting together a game of Star Wars RPG Saga Edition (currently out of print, but it's basically a 3.5/5E hybrid) and that dude is putting the pedal to the metal on designing it. He has a completely original story, as open a world as he can possibly manage, intergalactic politics and I was over at his house for five hours the other day with one of the other players (I'm playing a scoundrel and he's going to be my Chewbacca-style bodyguard/partner who will either be a party droid repurposed for heavy combat, or the world's most violent, psychopathic, drug addicted, explosive-obsessed ewok) to come up with our character backstories, personalities and build the ship we'll be flying around in (he homebrewed some really nice ship building mechanics so that we can fly around in a pile of shit that we didn't pay for, so it's constantly breaking down, stalling and we have to roll mechanics checks to get it to keep going) so he can tie it all into the plot seamlessly. He's a very impressive player and all of his characters are insanely detailed. I don't know why I didn't see it before but he's clearly the perfect brain type to DM, very focused on rules, very in control, but also has a great understanding of storytelling and what makes games fun. Basically I'm more excited about that game starting than I am about the new Star Wars movie.
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Roger Mexico, Gentleman
Sar wrote: Then I'm DMing a game every Sunday (and apparently sometimes on Wednesday because people will be arriving shortly). I'm running the 5E campaign The Lost Mines of Phandelver to get my feet wet, and yes, yes, I know it's the Starter Set adventure so it's basically baby's first adventure, but I'm brand new to DMing and my players are all brand new to RPGs in general, so I thought it was a good first step.
I'm a pretty seasoned DM and Phandelver was great.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with running from a module. What is wrong is telling your players they can't do something because it's not in the book. My old group captured a goblin attacker from the very first combat and created an in-universe bullshit backstory for him to ascend to the throne as the new goblin king (Mayor of Goblinburg) and wrote legal documents promising him a township and an iron clad trade agreement with Phandalin (one of my players was in law school).

I haven't played in the three or four months since moving and I seriously want to play/DM something.

My only serious option is the local game shop, but I'm not certain if it has the caliber of folks I'm comfortable playing with.
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Roger Mexico, Gentleman fucked around with this message on 2015/12/10 at 15:05:53.
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Sar
that's fucking awesome about the goblin. My players are basically running a scam, since they're currently in the Redbrand Hideout, that every time they encounter a group of the Redbrand Ruffians they kill the majority of them and once the ruffians understand that they're considerably outmatched, they try sending them back to the miner's exchange, hoping to increase their reward. Last night they cleared a room of four, and the last one, at one HP, bleeding from his wounds and successfully intimidated, was cornered by our party barbarian (he has zero charisma but became the party face because the guy playing him is really enjoying the roleplaying) and being told that he could live if he goes and earns an honest living at the miner's exchange. I chose, for this NPC, that he was younger and somewhat more foolhardy, so when the warlock attempted to address the situation and play a little good cop, he rolled a four for his persuasion and I had the ruffian say "and you let this half-elf filth travel with you?" the barbarian wanted to kick him in the knee. I had him roll an attack, halve a D4 and add his strength mod, snappying the ruffian's knee and sending him into shock. They managed to stabilize him with a medicine check, but if these sorts of shenanigans continue to occur, then ruffians they sent out will eventually regroup and attack them again. I haven't railroaded my players into anything by saying something dumb like "it's not in the campaign book so you can't do that", but my players have been approaching the game in at least a reasonably linear path. They've been overly suspicious of NPCs and broken into a few houses, as is par for the course for new players, but I've been able to make plotlines apparent to them pretty succesfully.

I feel you on not playing for a few months, I was starting to get really antsy because my main DM is a programmer working on a big project so we were meeting every month and a half to play, and so we all independently starting creating our own campaigns and DMing among different groups of friends and going to game shops to play. I'm pretty addicted to it right now, so a few months doesn't really compute for me.

What caliber of player do you normally play with? I find the game stores around here have a lot of high school kids that are kind of frustrating to play with. I honestly would love to play with a group that has been playing for a few years because I don't feel like I'm learning anything from the people I normally play with and I would like to be blown away by players again.

Oh and if you're a seasoned DM, do you have any tips for increasing the challenge of certain enemies? I got two extra players dropped on me last night and even though I increased some HP and AC they managed to burn down a room full of bugbears. It was quite frustrating to not be able to present an appropriate challenge for them.
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Roger Mexico, Gentleman
I feel you on not playing for a few months, I was starting to get really antsy because my main DM is a programmer working on a big project so we were meeting every month and a half to play, and so we all independently starting creating our own campaigns and DMing among different groups of friends and going to game shops to play. I'm pretty addicted to it right now, so a few months doesn't really compute for me.
What caliber of player do you normally play with? I find the game stores around here have a lot of high school kids that are kind of frustrating to play with. I honestly would love to play with a group that has been playing for a few years because I don't feel like I'm learning anything from the people I normally play with and I would like to be blown away by players again.
Mostly guys I've played with a lot that I'm comfortable getting shit-hammered and getting into character with. My previous group before I moved had been playing together on-and-off for about five years. We were all of drinking age, we had very similar interests in developing story and sense of humor.

The high school kids issue is really what holds me back. I don't know if I'm ready to be the old guy.

If you can manage it, get some local theater people into your game. I've never had the gonzo-bananas shenanigans as when I ran a game with three guys committed to community theater.
Oh and if you're a seasoned DM, do you have any tips for increasing the challenge of certain enemies? I got two extra players dropped on me last night and even though I increased some HP and AC they managed to burn down a room full of bugbears. It was quite frustrating to not be able to present an appropriate challenge for them.
So there's a lot to this question.

Did you roll like butt but the players rolled very well?
Was this encounter supposed to be a real knockdown challenge or a speed-bump?
Did the encounter make a boss fight more difficult?
Was the encounter a boss fight?
Were your players treating it like a slog or were they totally into being the ultimate bunch of fantasy bad asses?

After you answer those questions you can evaluate what to do in the encounter.

One of the easiest ways to make an encounter more difficult is to use mixed unit tactics.

If you have a group of bugbears, give a couple a character level:
Make one a wizard or a cleric. Remember to buff the bugbear team.
Make some rogues. Remember to set them up to take advantage of sneak attacks vs the ass beaters in the group.

It's really easy to fall into "the nth bugbear attacks, he hits for x damage" and get rolled over. However, the opposite is also true, where you completely outplay your players and stomp them into the ground on accident. Your players have to work together by choice. Your creatures can ALWAYS work together.
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Sar
I hadn't even considered giving the bugbears classes, that's an excellent idea. And I suppose the encounter could potentially make the upcoming boss fight more challenging, and it looks like we're actually going to be back down to four players after the last session, but six level twos against three bugbears is a pretty shoddy challenge, and I really could have made it more reasonable if I had just given them one more to fight. Giving them a fighter class for example and having the bugbear use second wind for example might be a good idea.

My players are pretty fantastic, they're all new to the game but are all very committed to the game. One person who just joined is a guy from my main group who is my favorite roleplayer I've ever played with, then I play with a musician friend, a photographer friend and a med student, so it's an eclectic group and they're all really committed to roleplaying and speaking and acting in character. I'm very committed to roleplaying NPCs and describing everything as thoroughly as I can, especially combat. I honestly think one of the worst things a DM can do is say "he does 11 points of damage to you" without describing the actual action. I have a bunch of general rules for combat description, too (for instance, if you roll under a ten total for you attack against an enemy's AC, the attack is a complete whiff, anything above ten that doesn't hit is a deflection by the enemy's defenses, be it armor, dexterity, magic or otherwise) and my main goal as DM is player immersion.

Oh and to your first question, no I didn't roll poorly, really, I just didn't up the challenge enough and they were able to carve through the bugbears quickly. But I recently gave them an encounter that I thought was going to be really tough, but I kept rolling so poorly that not a single one of my attacks landed, and they rolled so well (I believe they got two crits in the battle) that they were killing enemies with individual attacks. Being new players, they didn't think too much of it and the next time they fought an enemy of that type they chose to save spells, rages, etc and got knocked around pretty good until the warlock just broke out witch bolt and wiped out the last few.

I'd love to have more of my artist/actor/writer friends come play, but a lot of them still carry a bit of that 70s jock D&D stigma, so I just invite them to watch. One of my friends came and watched (basically as an excuse to sit around and drink all the wine in my apartment) and she immediately after started asking if she could play (her schedule ultimately did not allow her to, but she sometimes shows up for the tail end of a session to watch now), so I think it's a matter of people seeing what the game actually is and not making the lame judgment that every idiot since Mazes and Monsters came out has made.
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Drav
I'm a fair few sessions into the Prince of the Apocalypse campaign with my group now. This is my first campaign so I can't really give it any kind of meaningful review, but I've enjoyed it so far. Seems like a pretty cool sandbox adventure that's very obviously inspired by the Temple of Elemental Evil. Playing a human female Fighter with criminal background, so I'm not quite a Fighter/Thief but I have some basic burglary skills which have come in handy a few times. One thing I've noticed about 5E so far is that at low levels magic users massively out perform the fighter types in terms of damages output; sometimes I feel like I don't actually contribute much in battles unless I roll really well. It's almost tempting to do a bit of multi-classing.

Drav fucked around with this message on 2015/12/13 at 13:54:21.
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Sar
what fighting style did you take? Our party ranger took duel wielding and is currently only being outdone by our druid who took circle of the moon and can wildshape into a bear as far as damage output. The party warlock and the party barbarian are only doing medium amounts of damage in comparison, but their damage output increases steadily, while the ranger and the druid will remain generally at this level of damage output for a bunch of levels, and by the time level five or six rolls around they'll honestly be doing very little damage. This was intentional I think because 3.5 spellcasters were made of glass for the first few levels.

I'm not a huge fan of multi-classing in general, though as someone who plays rogues a lot, I think rogues should take one level dip, usually with fighter to acquire a fighting style. Two weapon fighting rogues are fucking badass, and even though ranged rogues aren't really my cup of tea, rogues with the archery fighting style are quite powerful too.
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Drav
I took the Duelist style. With a +1 Longsword and 14 strength I do D8 + 5 damager per hit, which I guess isn't anything to scoff at (especially with the occasional Action Surge and crits), but that's still on the low side compared to some of the first and second level spells for Wizards and Warlocks. And unlike the Fighter they usually don't have to roll to hit, so even a "failed" attack from them usually results in half-damage.

Anyway it's a pretty minor gripe. I'm still fairly happy with the character I'm playing overall.
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Roger Mexico, Gentleman
It's part of implementing MMO archetypes in D&D. Fighters start out as tanks while wizards and rogues are DPS. They really pulled back from 4E, but they're still moving in that direction.

Wizards also have the added difficulty of Spells per Day.

Fighter really start pulling combat weight a couple levels in when you start taking an absurd number of attacks per turn.
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Drav
Yeah I'm going to see if I can con either the Wizard or Warlock to take Haste at level 5 haha. 3 attack per turn (4 with an action surge) will seriously ruin some shit.

Has anyone been playing with feats? Do you think the trade-off with ability increases is worth it? I took the Alert feat at level one so I pretty much always get the first turn in combat.
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Sar
dude, that idiotic group I was playing with at the local game shop kept telling me that multi-classing my rogue with a fighter to get a two-weapon fighting style was a waste and that there was totally a two-weapon fighting feat that would do exactly the same thing and they finally managed to pressure me into taking the feat over the multiclass and it turns out the feat just gives you +1 AC when you're holding two weapons, which is nothing to scoff at, I suppose, but it's nothing compared to adding your dex mod to damage on the second strike.

A lot of the feats will also give you a stat bump, too, like I recommended Tavern Brawler to the barbarian in the group I DM for because it gives you a bump to strength and/or constitution in addition to increasing unarmed damage and making you proficient with improvised weapons. Feats generally seem okay in 5E, but they're nothing like they were in 3.5. I feel like my 3.5 rogue lives and dies on his feats.
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Drav
Ironically that feat is better for fighters since it also lets you dual-wield longswords. Although I think I'd be incline to avoid that on principle because holy shit is it ridiculous.
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Sar
in my 3.5 group our paladin is trying to take feats to dual-wield bastard swords which is ridiculous. Also, I'm the party rogue (as always) and one day they were sorting treasure while I took a bathroom break after combat and she swiped +1 studded leather armor that gave you +10 to hide checks out from underneath me. She plays in my 5E group and I keep threatening to kill her character if she doesn't give me that armor in the 3.5 game. Also, she's starting an evil campaign this weekend and I'm playing a mindflayer, but I'm having the hardest time with it. She asked me to use the Savage Species and Lords of Madness books as sources, but LoM basically just has a few pieces of equipment and mindflayer lore, then SS only has about one page on progressing as a Mindflayer that leaves a lot of questions open.
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Drav
Drav wrote: Yeah I'm going to see if I can con either the Wizard or Warlock to take Haste at level 5 haha. 3 attack per turn (4 with an action surge) will seriously ruin some shit.
Confirmed that this will ruin some shit.

I'm still enjoying Prince of the Apocalypse. It's become pretty combat heavy but the encounters are generally entertaining enough to carry things along. We're currently having some trouble deciding whether killing people while they sleep still counts as chaotic good if they're (probably) evil.
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Sar
Ha! I'm not sure about that, but I think repeated use of it might start dragging the characters in the direction of CN. My 3.5 group is very serious about alignment; my CG rogue threatened to torture someone (going as far as dragging the subject into another room in an elaborate intimidate check) and I was told I had to change to CN until I was killed and ultimately revived by a good deity. I'm glad to hear Elemental Evil is fun, I'm running that after my party finishes Lost Mines of Phandelver. Last session we got to the last dungeon, though they managed to completely circumvent one dungeon and are currently a level too low for the dungeon they're at. We'll see how that works out.

My 3.5 rogue just took two weapon fighting which I got to take for a spin yesterday fighting some giant spiders (would have gotten to use them against some sea hags before that, but my will save is a 1 and my DM has a hard-on for status effects, so I spend a good amount of time dazed or paralyzed) and if my flaming rapier is indeed flaming I do 8D6 + 1D4 + 4 (plus 14 fortitude save or be paralyzed 2D4 rounds for my poison dagger) if I have two successful hits against a flanked opponent, which seems to do about 40 damage generally, and because of my fighter level I'll get an extra attack with my rapier in (I think) two levels, which would put me up to 14D6 + 1D4 + 6 (plus 14 fort save) on three successful strikes against a flanked opponent. I joined the group completely green to D&D and I wasn't that useful to my party (I didn't really understand flanking for a while), but now I've come to be respected as our big gun in a lot of situations.

My friend's character was recently captured by a Merelith and is being tortured in some circle of hell and our current quest is to save him, so he rolled up a minotaur to play in the meantime who is the most outrageous tank I've ever encountered personally and is making all of us feel pretty useless in combat. When we had out sea hag fight I was almost instantly dazed, our monk took 6 strength damage and so any time he hit there was a good chance he would do no damage, our paladin was failing her reflex saves to stay stable on the ship that was rocking around in rough seas (then we have a bard who was on buffing/healing duty, obviously), and the minotaur killed all three sea hags in one turn with great cleave.
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Drav
Great Cleave was hilarious in the 3.5 PC games. If you pair it a magic glaive made through the broken crafting system you could wipe out whole rooms of enemies in one turn. 5E seems to be a lot better when it comes to no-brainer feats like that, except Lucky which our GM has already banned lol.

I protested the second time we were going to do the sleep killing thing. Someone countered with "what the fuck is the difference between this and stealth-killing that guard earlier?", and I guess he has a point, but it just has such a seedy, craven feel to it. I blame Kill Bill. Threatening torture doesn't strike me as too bad presuming you weren't actually going to go through with it.

Drav fucked around with this message on 2016/01/24 at 14:42:38.
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Sar
Eh, I threatened to torture during a dialogue sequence with an NPC (who was ostensibly friendly towards us, but as a character my rogue is distrustful of authority figures and the NPC in question was a local lord who had given us a quest under false pretenses and we had just found out), then my DM started asking me about my alignment, and when I said I wasn't going to go through with it, he naturally thought I was just backpedaling.

My players in my 5E game are about to hit level four and pretty much none of them have shown interest in taking Lucky as a feat, though I do recognize it as one of the most ridiculously overpowered skills a character can possess, I've simply avoided bringing it up and hopefully it won't become an issue. They're pretty obedient since they're brand new to D&D and they'll kind of follow my lead, so I put post-its on their character sheets with some ideas for recommended feats or ability score improvements, and they tend to come over to my place an hour early to look through the books since none of them have purchased their own player's handbooks or anything yet.

My players tracked down a goblin encampment at one point and killed all but one of the goblins in their sleep, and the final goblin was the subject of some fairly ghastly torture. All of my players at that point were chaotic neutral, but I still had to talk to them about not torturing EVERYONE they encounter (they once circumcised a hobgoblin) and now a friend of mine joined and she's playing a NG druid, so she's sort of keeping them in line for now, but she sleeps in trees at night so they tend to just get up to no good after she's asleep...
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Drav
Based on what I've seen at my gaming group and PAX, torture/other outrageous violence seems to be the natural instinct for new players. Hell, I did it a few times early on. Most DMs seem to roll their eyes and just go with it, although I suspect they'd probably draw the line if someone suggested rape or something (hasn't come up).
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Roger Mexico, Gentleman
Drav wrote: Based on what I've seen at my gaming group and PAX, torture/other outrageous violence seems to be the natural instinct for new players. Hell, I did it a few times early on. Most DMs seem to roll their eyes and just go with it, although I suspect they'd probably draw the line if someone suggested rape or something (hasn't come up).
Yeah.

There are only two things you can really do as DM to deter torture: provide negative reinforcement and/or politely talk to your players about how describing a torture scene makes you uncomfortable. The latter has never worked for me, so ymmv.

Players who torture NPCs either think they're Jack Bauer or are going through weird power fantasies and think they're Mr. Blonde.
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Sar
I don't really mind my players torturing enemies as long as it remains in the spirit of silliness. I don't think they'll ever start thinking they're Jack Bauer.

On another note, I fucking love battle maps but I'm finding it so difficult to get a system worked out for making them. I was meticulously drawing them by hand which worked okay for a while but as the dungeons have gotten bigger it's been more of a pain in the ass, and now I'm printing them out on 8" x 11" and meticulously affixing them to poster board with spray adhesive. The dungeon I'm running now is 72 pages that I need to cut and assemble before Sunday. And don't come at me with that roll20 thing, my DM in my 3.5 game does that and the lack of tactility and the general ugliness of the program makes me wonder if it would totally ruin D&D for new players, and I think narrative combat just gives the DM so much more to have to juggle on the fly. And maybe it's my own brain, but I have a hard time visualizing combat and whatnot without actual maps and figures.
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Drav
We use area maps for exploring in our campaign, but combat is narrated unless there are an unusually high number of combatants to track. I've played with miniatures as well, which works fine but gives the game more of a wargame-y feel which I personally find less immersive.
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Drav
So yesterday my GM informed me that an action surge actually allows me to take both my attacks a second time per turn. Dear God.
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Sar
yep, I just ran an encounter where my players were attacked by 10 enemies, the leader was a level seven fighter with two swords who used action surge to knock out the party's paladin and second wind during the fight to recover hit points. It was pretty great, I threw a dragon at them pretty much right after and that was a pretty brutal fight.
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Drav
I've considered taking two-weapon fighting when I get to take an additional style at level 10, but it seems like I'd have to take the Duel Wielder feat to make it worth my while, and even then the damage difference is negligible once I hit level 11 and get an extra attack anyway. I'm thinking of taking the Grappler feat once I've boosted my strength to max, so I'll need a hand free for that anyway.
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Sar
wait, you think a reliable +4 or +5 on your attacks isn't worth it? Also why do you think dual wielder would make it worth your while? I find that feat to be pretty underpowered and only really helps if you change weapons a lot, I think.
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Drav
I took the duelling style initially, so I'd lose the +2 damage bonus if I dual-wield. Right now, at level 6, I get two attacks at +8 to hit and D8 +7 damage (+4 for 18 STR +2 for dualling +1 for a magic longsword). Averaging the damage, and taking basis hit probability on the average enemy AC I've been seeing recently which is around 16, that's ~13.2 damage per turn. You can only dual-wield with light weapons (pg 195 of the PHB says BOTH need to be light, which I found surprising), and I don't have any magic light weapons, so I'd have to use two regular short swords. That's 2 attacks at +7 to hit and D6 +5 damage, and one attack at D6 damage. Assuming the same enemy AC, that's ~11.6 damage. Combined with the -2 AC due to loss of a shield, that seems decisively not worth it.

But I could take the Dual Wielder feat at level 8, and two weapon fighting at level 10, which makes two weapons more viable. Now I can use my +1 longsword and another D8 weapon (I may find another magic one by then, but lets assume I don't), and the +1 AC bonus from the feat means I'm only down 1 AC from my shield (let's assume I don't find a magic shield in the meantime). So at level 10 I have 2 attacks at +9 to hit and D8 +7 damage for sword and shield style, or two attacks at +9 to hit and D8 +5 damage and another attack at +8 to hit and D8 +4 damage. Let's assume the average enemy AC doesn't go up, sword and shield is ~
14.3 damage and two weapons is ~16.5. Two extra points of damage per turn with a trade-off of -1 AC makes two weapons seem a bit more viable.

BUT I get another attack at level 11, so now the average damage is 21.5 for sword and shield vs ~22.4 for two weapons. Less than a point of damage difference at the cost of a feat (or ability increases), a fighting style option, and -1 AC. So there are a lot of factors that could influence things (like, say, finding some awesome light magic weapons), but right now I'm not really considering it. I'm leaning more in the direction of the the Archery style (I have decent dex and may find a magic bow at some point), or maybe the Defence or Protection styles which would work nice with sword and shield.

Drav fucked around with this message on 2016/02/28 at 08:42:10.
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